North East Reference Group
Minutes of Meetings






Mr Peter Hamilton, Convener of Greater Glasgow Health Council (Chair)

Mr Chris Spry, Chief Executive, Greater Glasgow NHS Board

Ms Maggie Boyle, Chief Executive, North Glasgow University Hospitals NHS Trust

Ms Sandra White, MSP, Glasgow

Ms Pauline McNeill, MSP, Glasgow Kelvin

Ms Patricia Ferguson, MSP, Glasgow Maryhill

Mr Frank McAveety, MSP Glasgow Shettleston

Mr Paul Martin, MSP, Glasgow Springburn

Mr Brian Fitzpatrick, MSP, Strathkelvin and Bearsden

Dr Frank Dunn, Medical Staff Association, Stobhill Hospital

Dr Brendan Devine, Medical Staff Association, Glasgow Royal Infirmary

Mr Bill Goudie, Partnership Forum, North Glasgow University Hospitals NHS Trust




Welcome and Introductions



Mr Hamilton welcomed those present to the first meeting of the North-East Reference Group.   






Mr Bill May, Member of Greater Glasgow Health Council



Chairing the Group



Mr Hamilton agreed to chair the meeting and he provided some background to the formation of the North East Reference Group.  GGNHSB issued a consultation document in March 2000 with the consultation period ending September 2000.  A further consultation period ended in December 2000.  A need for greater consultation and public involvement was recognised with a focus on a number of areas including acute services in the north and east of the city.  This resulted in the formation of reference groups including this one for North East Glasgow.



Remit of the Reference Group



Originally it was suggested that the Reference Group would carry out the option appraisal but it was evident that the process needed more public involvement.  It was proposed by GGNHSB that workshops be set up to determine the benefits criteria for an option appraisal with further workshops to score the various options against the criteria.  The Reference Group would be responsible for overseeing the option appraisal process.  The next stage would be preparation and submission of an outline business case to support an application for capital investment.


There was a lengthy discussion on the need for community representation on the Reference Group and how this could be achieved given the significant number of community groups.  While acknowledging that there will be wide public representation on the option appraisal groups (workshop c) it was strongly recommended by staff representatives and MSPs that there should be community representation on the Reference Group.  It was further proposed that primary care should also be represented with one GP from the North and one from the East.






Miss Boyle provided detail on the options subject to the Appraisal Process.    She explained that the North-East was not as far advanced as the West and South of the city.  The North-East options went to consultation at the end of 2000.   She outlined briefly the options for consideration:



Glasgow Royal Infirmary as the site for all in-patient services for the North and East.  Stobhill has an ACAD but no Acute Inpatient beds.




Glasgow Royal Infirmary closes.  Stobhill is rebuilt as the sole hospital for the North and East.



Glasgow Royal Infirmary retains a specialist services role. Stobhill is redeveloped as a District General Hospital for the North and East.



The “do minimum” option.  The Glasgow Royal Infirmary and Stobhill stay as they are but are brought up to an estate condition that meets basic health and safety and plan replacement requirements.



Mr Spry suggested that option 3 required more discussion around what specialist services would be provided.    There may be financial and economic difficulties to be overcome because services would have to fit the modern buildings at Glasgow Royal Infirmary.    The services located there would have to be acceptable to the clinical community.    For clinical reasons it was agreed that services such as plastic surgery and maternity should be located with an acute adult hospital.    It is also possible that there are either insufficient specialist services or too many to fill all the available beds.


It was confirmed that those involved in the Option Appraisal would be given all of the relevant information.     There was discussion around the suggested option to close the Glasgow Royal Infirmary and there was agreement that the closure of Glasgow Royal Infirmary was not a viable option and therefore should not be put forward.   It was agreed, therefore, that the following four options will be considered:



Glasgow Royal Infirmary as an inpatient site for the North-East.   Stobhill Hospital as an ACAD facility with minor injuries service.



Glasgow Royal Infirmary as a specialist hospital.    Stobhill as a District General Hospital for the North-East.  



Stobhill with an ACAD, general medicine and general surgery, casualty – all in modern facilities.     Glasgow Royal Infirmary would retain its present role.



Do minimum. This option is the status quo but with money spent only on essential backlog maintenance.


On behalf of the North Glasgow Trust Miss Boyle accepted the changes to the options for consideration.    







Letter from the Petitions Committee



Mr Hamilton drew the group’s attention to the letter from the Petitions Committee.  He stated that the petition would be taken into account during the Option Appraisal process.    



The Option Appraisal & its Conduct



Mr Spry discussed the Option Appraisal process, including identifying non-financial benefits and the criteria used when scoring the options.  Every option appraisal must have a risk and uncertainty profile, requiring work by accountants and economists.  There must be accepted standards and benchmarks when drawing up clinical benefits to ensure consistent standards throughout the city.   A Workshop (Workshop B)  to bring all these elements together will be arranged.  It is paramount to get it right for the North-East otherwise the do minimum option happens, no capital investment is forthcoming and no new hospitals are built. The overall scoring, including clinical, financial and economic criteria will determine the future of services in North East Glasgow.    


There was discussion around the need to focus on improving healthcare as a consequence to the proposed changes. Statistics showed the worst ill health in Glasgow is in the constituencies represented on the Reference Group particularly Shettleston and Springburn areas. The need, during the Option Appraisal, to consider the patients’ journey and experience was recognised.    


It was suggested that the timescales set for the process are ambitious.  Mr Spry explained that they are tied into the process for all of Glasgow.

Mr Spry advised that the initial workshop will include the South of Glasgow and will make use of UK wide information to enable choices to be made.  He indicated that Workshop A will include representatives from medicine, nursing, professions allied to medicine, GPs and partnership organisations.    A number of MSPs expressed concern that it may be difficult to reflect the specific North-East problems in a Glasgow wide workshop.



Participation in Workshops



Mr Spry tabled a paper Options for North-East Reference Group Workshop C.    This offered some suggestions on the running of the workshop to ensure that reasonable participation was achieved and the needs of the option appraisal process were met.   He advised that a large venue would be required and that 19 stakeholder groups had been identified.   He described briefly the models in the paper. (copy of paper attached.)









Mr Spry advised the group that the process would be scrutinised by the Scottish Executive and  needs to be auditable.   Mr Spry indicated that Workshop B would have public observation.   It was made clear that those attending Workshop C must attend Workshops A & E.   The group agreed to discus the paper fully at the next meeting.


Appointment of Technical Advisers


Mr Spry advised a company had been appointed to carry out a transport review for the Option Appraisal.  They will generate information on patient numbers, transport availability, traffic impact and provide this to the groups. The information produced will be made available to option appraisal groups and public.   




External facilitators to run the workshops are being sought and group members would be welcome to attend the selection interviews taking place on 10 July.


Action :    Miss Boyle to contact MSPs with regard to attending the interviews




Miss Boyle advised that the North and South Trusts would seek design consultants to assist with the work required for completion of the Outline Business Cases.    They will also contract with financial advisers to ensure that OBC requirements are met.



Involvement of External Auditors and Partnership UK



Mr Spry informed the group that he is negotiating with Price Waterhouse Coopers to ensure that the financial methodology and affordability framework are sound.    Partnership UK, formerly the Treasury PFI Panel, is an organisation funded by the Treasury and financial institutions to ensure that complex private finance projects succeed.   They will become an integral part of the process in assessing risks and ensuring success of the project.



Next Steps



Mr Hamilton came back to the issue of community and Primary Care representation on the Reference Group.  It was agreed that the constituency MSPs would suggest an organisation from which their community representation could be sought. North Trust would seek primary care representation.   


Action:   Miss Boyle to seek nominated organisations from constituency MSPs. 
              Mr Spry to approach the Area Medical Committee for GP nominations.



Date and Time of Next Meeting








Last modified: November 13, 2002

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